tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post4636006636215365151..comments2024-02-29T18:17:23.492+11:00Comments on Ministry and Me: Jesus All About LifeChrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-55033819010194245582008-12-29T14:45:00.000+11:002008-12-29T14:45:00.000+11:00Hey Matt, thanks for your comment! This post cert...Hey Matt, thanks for your comment! This post certainly prompted lots of discussion when I originally posted it last year!<BR/><BR/>Evangelism, or if that word is too uncool these days Mission, is unavoidably biblically connected to proclamation of the Gospel, that we are sinners who need to be saved and that our salvation comes through Jesus and his life, death and resurrection.<BR/><BR/>We have to be get over our desire to please people and start taking some risks to get the Gospel out there. Taking every chance we are given to proclaim the Gospel.<BR/><BR/>I've heard too many times people say things like it's really unhelpful to tell my not-yet Christian friend he's going to hell and must repent. Sure there are ways and means of passing that reality on to someone, but I'm often left to wonder... do we really believe that our non-believe friends and relatives are going to hell... if we were more focussed on that reality, then we might actually be motivated to do evangelism.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-26906267384947814892008-12-25T21:56:00.000+11:002008-12-25T21:56:00.000+11:00On ya Chris, for putting evangelism up for critiqu...On ya Chris, for putting evangelism up for critique and observation, so we can think seriously about it and do it better. <BR/>I know from personal experiences that evangelistic "advertising" can often be 'Christendom's best friend and worst enemy. <BR/>I noticed someone's comment about 'incarnational' evangelism. <BR/>And if could throw my two cents worth in on this topic, I will. <BR/>Firstly, I think it's a phrase that gets thrown around alot these days without anyone really explaining what they mean when they say it. <BR/>It's a 'buzz word' now and too often I've heard Christians tell me that they don't "preach Jesus", but prefer to be "incarnational", or that churches need to be more "incarnational" if they wanna reach unsaved unchurched aussies in the 21st century. And they tell me something like "you know, Jesus "incarnated"- he came to us in the flesh, like thats how we need to be, you know- living it out in the flesh- we need to be "incarnational"... or so their logic goes. <BR/>Problem I have with this thinking is as follows: Jesus incarnated in a way that none of us ever can, or will, or are supposed to. <BR/>1) He is uncreated, God the Son, eternally co- equal with the Father, sharing the same divine status and nature and essence as the Father, He is the Creator. We humans are fundamentally created, finite, mortal beings and will never share the unique status and relationship to the Father that Jesus does. Ever. Any "incarnation" we do, will never be the same as His, because of who He is. <BR/>2) He came to be the substitutionary sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world. We are not Saviours. We are only messengers. We proclaim the salvation that He won, inviting sinners to trust and recieve Him- but we ourselves never take any one's sins away. Sure, we can suffer greatly, and put ourselves on the line sacrificially- looking to Christ as our example, for how much we should love people and how far we'll go to win them for Christ, even willing to lose our own lives... But fundamentally His mission was to save sinners by dying in their place, our mission is to save by telling. We can never do what He did- we're not supposed to- Christ did it once for all, we just get to tell about it. <BR/>For these reasons, we need to be careful about saying we have to be (or should be) "incarnational"..to do evangelism, because the incarnation was a one off event. God became man. We are humans, always human beings, except we're commissined to tell people about he God who became a man who died for the sins of the world. <BR/><BR/>Also, the very same Bible that tells us of the "incarnation" e:g (the once only event) John 1 Word became flesh, also tells us that Jesus engaged in front- line, outspoken, public preaching of the gospel (euangelion- good news- where we get the word "evangelism" from) <BR/>Mark 1:14-15 says Jesus went through the streets and towns, publicly yelling "The kingdom of God is near (in the death of Jesus), Repent and believe the good news!" He may not have stood on a soapbox with a megaphone, but he certainly did tell it out publicly, he certinaly did confront people to their face about it- the Incarnated One did public old- school preaching. So did the apostles, Peter, John and Paul after Jesus rose from the dead. (Acts 3-4, 9, 17, etc..) <BR/>You can't say "my model of evangelism is incarnational because Jesus incarnated- because the same Incarnated Jesus- was a Preacher!!!! If you wanna be like him- then you must have to Preach!!!! Maybe you won't get to preach to crowds like He did, or like apostle Peter, or Billy Graham- but Biblical evangelism MUST MUST MUST involve the use of a Christian speakers lips conveying the scriptural information of the gospel towards an unbeliever's ears. Even if it's just in a one- to- one conversation. The activity is still the same. It's a two way communicative process, inescapably. The very definition of evangelism NECESSARILY involves verbal communication, because it is "news" a message. <BR/><BR/>How do these thoughts apply to us? <BR/>1) It means we can't shirk off the responsibility to preach the gospel. Don't be disobedient to the Lord Jesus who commanded in Matt 28 that we "teach" people. Don't ignore the example of the Lord Jesus who publicly "preached" (e.g Mark 1:14-15) even though he also did miracles, healed people and showed compassion to demonstrate the Father's love. He also verbally proclaimed His rule. That activity also applies to us. He didn't say "Go, incarnate and make disciples", he said "go make disciples, TEACH".. <BR/><BR/>2) Proclamational evangelism (eg: in a church, on a street, in an auditorium, one- to- one over coffee, etc) is not popular. Telling people God is holy and hates sin, telling them of only One Saviour and Lord- WILL be hated. I think we run all teary- eyed to the "incarnational" hobby-horse, to console ourselves from the fact that reality is people hate the message of the cross. And they will hate us.<BR/>The cross exposes their evil sin- and they will want to flee from it and reject it. I think most of us in the West want to shirk off the proclamation aspect of evangelism- so that we don't have to deal with people getting angry at us, laughing at us, rejecting us... We shouldn't neglect obedience, even if our audience doesn't like us.<BR/><BR/>And finally doing good works in the name of evangelism is hard to distinguish between good works done by unbelievers. <BR/><BR/>Plenty of pagan aussies adopt kids from Worldvision, do the 40 hour famine, give tins of food to homeless collections, give to the Red Shield Appeal, give blood, etc... what's evangelistic about that? By all means, we're to do good works- but works unaccompanied by the message, doesn't convert anyone. They're just works. Just deeds, not the powerful God- breathed message that saves people. <BR/><BR/>We need to tread carefully to ever say and think and demand that churches/ Christians be "incarnational". What we want to affirm is that: Jesus is Lord, he saves people who respond to the gospel, the gospel needs to be preached in our churches, in our homes and cities and every place humans dwell, and let us live godly and Christ centred, obedient lives of love and good deeds- so that the gospel we preach looks attractive and winsome to those who don't believe. <BR/><BR/>Phew! That's my sermon"ette"... any thoughts???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-78820566391170146802007-11-14T21:32:00.000+11:002007-11-14T21:32:00.000+11:00I know some people have critised your critiism but...I know some people have critised your critiism but I think its good to be discerning and to see what works what doesn't - using the minds and wisdom that God gave us.<BR/><BR/>I feel frustrated by evaglism events alot of work seems to go into organising them and only christians turn up. It makes me think what can be done differently to make it work. but of course you can't forget to look to God the one who has the power to open peoples heartsAstridhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10277034506789629487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-45559058927847536752007-10-29T23:26:00.000+11:002007-10-29T23:26:00.000+11:00Is TDT where it's at? I've gotta get up with the t...Is TDT where it's at? I've gotta get up with the technology...<BR/><BR/>Gotta say, I was stoked to see Baywest working with FOCUS on it. <BR/><BR/>I was also stoked to see someone like Prof Alastair Richardson come in and not have all the answers. It was heartening to see someone come who was grappling with various issues, yet was still able to hold on to his faith.<BR/><BR/>That particular talk, in terms of personal learning, was most useful - having been in many a conversation with people who cannot consider Christianity because of dinosaur excavations, evolution and various other observations.<BR/><BR/>What's more, I was able to bring a friend along. That's something that's pretty cool.<BR/><BR/>Who we are has a massive impact on people's percepions of Christianity. JAAL campaigns can be useful to present more formally who/what/why we are.<BR/><BR/>Our church made an effort to pray for the campaign, but was not so much actually a "part" of it.BSJ-romhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02304786061127486831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-50448434679352274622007-10-28T20:09:00.000+11:002007-10-28T20:09:00.000+11:00Just for the record, I've been watching TDT for ab...Just for the record, I've been watching TDT for about 1.5 hours tonight. I don't ever pay much attention to ads and I have noticed the JAAL ads 4 times already tonight. And the last time I noticed it because I recognised the tune. I know it is only one evening, but a good sign at least<BR/><BR/>JTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-48549259746658700462007-10-28T11:11:00.000+11:002007-10-28T11:11:00.000+11:00I've joined this discussion very late, but just a ...I've joined this discussion very late, but just a comment.. This whole discussion has, I think, been a good thing. I think there's danger in guarding ourselves too much in terms of honest expression of our failures. One of the comments mentioned something along the lines of being careful that non-Christians didn't read this sort of thing and think "the Christians can't even agree". Well the truth is, we often can't! If we're going to be interacting with non-Christians at a truly honest level (and it's a bit hard to share your faith if you're not being truly honest!) then there's no point covering our weaknesses. We should defend the gospel and stand up for God, who is without weakness, but it's futile to try to hide our OWN failures or disagreements.<BR/><BR/>I think the result of the JAAL campaign was overall quite good - it may not have achieved its original aims (to provoke interest in the gospel, facilitate discussion?) but I'm almost certain that God has used it for his glory in a big way, just as he always intended. He knew its success or failure before it even began or was conceived as an idea. Without diverting any responsibility from ourselves, I think we need to trust that God used that campaign, and that he's using this and other similar discussions! I know that from Chris's post and from all of these comments, I've been led to think and pray about the campaign, about sharing our faith and about God's will in all of this.Renaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05993035628161957173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-49936326066544552432007-10-26T18:02:00.000+10:002007-10-26T18:02:00.000+10:00No I deleted the comments, 1 because they where wr...No I deleted the comments, 1 because they where writen late at night and did not neciseraly make sense. 2. Because A m8 pointed out a different angle meaning I did not neciseraly suppot the view I presented any more. Where I did support the view I put forward I did not explain in enough detail so best if posts where no-longer avaible in the public domain.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-13319875256940674792007-10-26T14:47:00.000+10:002007-10-26T14:47:00.000+10:00you're right my speech was my finest finest hour! ...you're right my speech was my finest finest hour! ;)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-1621386027340845972007-10-25T21:50:00.000+10:002007-10-25T21:50:00.000+10:00Chris I just have to interrupt and congratulate yo...Chris I just have to interrupt and congratulate you on your birthday speech. Inspirational son. Martin Luther King has nothing on you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-14722894524793738862007-10-25T15:16:00.000+10:002007-10-25T15:16:00.000+10:00i promise i didn't delete them!i promise i didn't delete them!Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-62398144875801084382007-10-25T14:57:00.000+10:002007-10-25T14:57:00.000+10:00Wow oh so many deleted comments that must be somet...Wow oh so many deleted comments that must be something of a record.mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03321272459192364067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-22033142326576728642007-10-25T14:06:00.000+10:002007-10-25T14:06:00.000+10:00What's with the all the "comment's deleted" - some...What's with the all the "comment's deleted" - someone must have got firey!<BR/><BR/>Here's my $0.02. I don't think you can talk about JAAL in terms of success. JAAL is/was (meant to be) a catalyst for (frankly) the churches to do what they are/were meant to be doing anyway! So the question is "has JAAL worked" isn't the question - "has the church done their job?" is the question.<BR/><BR/>Chris - I think you're touching on that real question by describing your frustration with sharing the gospel. In general, (irrespective of JAAL), we feel ineffective. That's good - a church that thinks it's got it together usually has only one way to head - down.<BR/><BR/>There were two parts to JAAL - I'll call them the "quiet" side and the "big event " side.<BR/><BR/>The quiet side was about encouraging people to think outside the box and to bring Christ into ordinary quiet conversation. I think that has happened - but it'll never really be proveable one way or another. In that sense I don't care what sort of event JAAL was (it could have been a "red nose day" or "great australian morning tea" and still have the sort of effect I'm talking about here). The JAAL "brand" is useful for this "quiet"/"catalyst" side of things. The training for church members about how to share their faith was fantastic. Far and away, for me, this is the most valuable part of JAAL.<BR/><BR/>The other part of JAAL is the "public" side - the ads themselves, people calling the number etc. And I here I have to echo some of your disappointment. I have seen the ads three times on TV (about 10% of the number of Mormon ads I've seen), once in a paper. We have had no responses come our way via the number/website and no requests to join in the follow-up course we've been running. No blame game etc. - in the end it's up to us to provide the resources for carpet-bomb marketing if that's what we want.<BR/><BR/>All in all, I think your analysis in the original post is spot on, if a little polemic :-)<BR/><BR/>Will Briggs<BR/>Connections Church, SomersetAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-77262445865724727852007-10-25T14:05:00.000+10:002007-10-25T14:05:00.000+10:00a brief day of fireworks..a brief day of fireworks..Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03337659764179531085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-4501347376047711562007-10-25T02:22:00.000+10:002007-10-25T02:22:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-27264892204328658352007-10-25T02:20:00.000+10:002007-10-25T02:20:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-30134306775502100952007-10-25T02:14:00.000+10:002007-10-25T02:14:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-60545066454471739122007-10-25T02:03:00.000+10:002007-10-25T02:03:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-26086923497848307602007-10-25T01:58:00.000+10:002007-10-25T01:58:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-33603625463387695642007-10-25T01:54:00.000+10:002007-10-25T01:54:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-45838429304336305832007-10-25T01:44:00.000+10:002007-10-25T01:44:00.000+10:00I forgot to add some of people that I talked at Un...I forgot to add some of people that I talked at Uni about the TV add actually thought it was a anti christian add. Some where along the way the message may have got mixed up... If we where being bold with indivdual adds about various programs why not show the same boldness with the telvision adds, atleast to create some thing conterversual and memeralable.. <BR/><BR/>Allison their is nothing to wrong to say that we are not perfect, and that things could be done better, rather we serve a perfect god, however we our selfs are not perfect. <BR/><BR/>I am not saying I agree with or disagree with what Alan & Chris has said, but their is no harm in talking about it. Just like their is no harm in you stating you believe the the event was a success. If the people who helped organize the event, are reading this blog I hope they see it for what it is, a christian careing about the Kindom of god, and looking at how various campains, or missions can serve god.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-9116802298129560192007-10-25T01:23:00.000+10:002007-10-25T01:23:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-40019343770494472212007-10-25T01:08:00.000+10:002007-10-25T01:08:00.000+10:00We also need to consider their was alot of churche...We also need to consider their was alot of churches taking part in the Jesus all about life campain and if every church that ran a event got 50 people or so along that would be alot of people hearing gods word... most churchs that took part ran more then 1 event meaning thousands of people may have heard about god other this time. This could also mean the impact is fare bigger then we actually think<BR/><BR/>Perhaps if we want really big events, the sort of size that could really change our state and create the attentions of the media, we need less events and to work more as a body, not as various churchs all running our own campains.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-75889566046632977282007-10-25T00:55:00.000+10:002007-10-25T00:55:00.000+10:00Chris, there are a few things that need to be cons...Chris, there are a few things that need to be considered when looking at JAAL... 1. this was the first Jesus all about life event, most events need to be ran on a yearly basis to become any thing prominent. As programs take time to build unless you get a lot of media support, unfortunately they like to blame us rather then help us.<BR/><BR/>2. How do you judge success? Through the worldly eyes? Ie.. how many people come along? Or how many people gave their hearts to god? Or should we wait longer and see what god has done with the program as some one who may bring thousands of people to Christ may have began their journey with Christ through this program. We just do not know only god knows. <BR/><BR/>This is not to say the program was a huge success, to bring people in you need attractions, a guest lecture / speaker will not draw people in to hear God’s word unless God has all ready planted a seed. Bringing in key speakers regardless of the effects on the non-believers it is good to build up our fellow Christians and prepare us to answer questions our friends bring up. <BR/><BR/>I come across a few people who have seen the adds, and the adds made way for some interesting discussions even if people did not go to the events. If every member of a church managed to talk to 1 person about the campaign that would sow quiet afew seeds its up to good if or when they grow. Again meaning the campaign may have been a great success only god will see the amount of fruits from the campaign. However television advertising is not the best way of advertising events, if you want to get the message out their posters and face book act… For instance the small black and white ones we put up did not really show up. <BR/><BR/>Another factor was the time was not the best at all as a lot of people are busy around this time of year……<BR/><BR/>However I do have a criticism of the program and that is…. <BR/>If our aim is to speak to the mass population we also need to bring in other attractions to draw people to the event, unfortunately a lot of people from our generation will not go out to listen to a speaker however good they are or however much the need to hear the message. The only time they will consider going to a event is if some one they trust has already been and said it is worth while. Their attitude is so many times speakers are just boring. As such the lecture / sermon / talk need to be given more times and perhaps other 1 or 2 more days as well. Though we no this is not the case because god’s works through them try telling them this. Or you need some thing to draw them in like a big music act if you are going for this approach with the aim to get large amounts of people along. Unfortunately this is the way it is… We could get into a theological discussion on if this is a wise or biblical thing to do.. but that’s not the point I am making, <BR/><BR/>In the end I believe God used JAAL to his glory and for his purpose and in the end that is what is important.S4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201354788609516324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-12015008413714610092007-10-25T00:09:00.000+10:002007-10-25T00:09:00.000+10:00Hi Alison,I agree with you that it is important to...Hi Alison,<BR/>I agree with you that it is important to be gentle with our comment on the church, for the benefit of non-believers, but it is important to have that kind of transparency, to recognise that the church is not a smooth ride, but something to be worked for, and that living for Christ's name isn't deserved, but a sacrifice.<BR/>Chris' original post is somewhat of an encouragement (in, yes admittedly, his unique way). He doesn't seek to destroy the idea of JAAL, but just presents his opinion of its success in a constructive way. Unfortunately Chris also found some lines that were less than encouraging, but in this instance it is important to, just like Chris did in regard to JAAL, recognise 'failure' as a building block. I am convinced that Chris has the ability to pray through such matters/manners of expression.<BR/>We can well grumble behind closed doors, or grumble privately, but it can also serve the community of Christians (especially those in contact with Chris' blog) to express our thoughts out loud, and allow others to learn from that. Similarly we can sit inside and talk about evangelism, or we can get out there like JAAL has, and we can all learn from the experience.<BR/><BR/>It is possibly a bit wild to say that Chris is undermining the unity of the church under JAAL by writing this post, from what I can see we are all learning a lot about where we stand in our walk with God, and how we are proclaiming Jesus' name, and hearing and discussing publicly where the church (generally) can improve.<BR/>To publicly and openly question the JAAL campaign is making it accountable, which is an acceptable thing. Where our pastors may not be so successful, it is helpful for them to learn from their congregation (where appropriate). Similarly, where a campaign may not have been so successful (in areas) its good to hear from the participants.<BR/>'In our weakness He is strong' and I believe ultimately, this whole experience, JAAL and subsequently Chris' blog, is able to glorify Christ, because it has been a time of growth, if not for you, but very much so for me.<BR/>I would appeal to people to support Chris in his boldness, and to encourage him in his weaknesses, so that we can all act in a way that does reflect our faith in Jesus, and continue to build up our fellow Brothers and Sisters.<BR/>Continue to discuss but do it without pride, instead with the Love of Christ that he shows us in his good mercy.<BR/>I hope I personally haven't caused offence in participating in this blog discussion. If you feel I have been out of line, please contact me through my own blog or on this discussion board.<BR/>Be encouraged Chris! :-)<BR/>God Bless,<BR/>AlanAlanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03337659764179531085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-86096107712038662652007-10-24T17:14:00.000+10:002007-10-24T17:14:00.000+10:00Hi Chris, While you have every right to put your t...Hi Chris, <BR/><BR/>While you have every right to put your thoughts out there on about the JAAL campiagn on your own blog , I feel pretty disappointed that you have chosen to do this in such a public place. It is fine that you have questions about JAAL , we live in a democratic society and by questioning things we can all learn from one another. I just don't see the point of questioning a campiagn that has united over 200 churchse in Tasmanina in an unpredented way in a public forum. <BR/><BR/>I know that the creators of JAAL and those running the campaign would be more than happy to listen to how it could be done better anohter time or your concerns. <BR/><BR/>The JAAL campaign aims to give non Christians a picture of the church of Christ as united and working together.<BR/><BR/>By critising the campaign in forum that anyone can see, how is that uniting the church in Tas. It just gives those who are non Christians more ground to say , look at those Christians , they cant; agree on anything , why are there so many demomninations.<BR/><BR/>My two girls aged 6 and 3 are quick to point out the adds and the signage in our city. In fact my youngest has quiet a little song that she has made up from viewing the adds and we mainly watch ABC.<BR/><BR/>Have your concerns , but post them to the creators and those in charge of the campaign, disscuss them amongst your Christian friends but just be careful in all that you do. <BR/><BR/>We need to work together to glorify Christ , not pull Christian things apart publically.<BR/>AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com