tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post7049740176560065533..comments2024-02-29T18:17:23.492+11:00Comments on Ministry and Me: Shaken not stirredChrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-35017378816870840942009-07-31T23:10:53.453+10:002009-07-31T23:10:53.453+10:00Hi Chris,
While I wouldn't for a moment sugge...Hi Chris,<br /><br />While I wouldn't for a moment suggest that there aren't differences between men and women on an anatomical and hormonal level, I am not at all convinced that this has any relevance for the roles that men and women play in the life of the body of Christ.<br /><br />I'm not about to try to persuade you on this, and I need to acknowledge that as a teacher, preacher and leader who has wrestled with these issues for over 30 years, I'm probably not interested in being persuaded by you, either.<br /><br />To try to explain a little though: it is my experience that the "equal but complementary" rhetoric almost always plays out in a way that means that men are encouraged to exercise their gifts fully and freely, while women are constrained in the use of their gifts. That is inequitable. The "uncomplimentary" thing is a bit more subtle. I wasn't just playing with words. A compliment affirms and encourages. My experience of the complementarian approach has been anything but affirming and encouraging. Indeed, it has often been extremely painful.Jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931184566199504968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-22402486670533441062009-07-31T13:14:43.151+10:002009-07-31T13:14:43.151+10:00@John - for sure, even after I posted this I wonde...@John - for sure, even after I posted this I wondered whether I was being too harsh. I guess the thing is can you have an in house argument over things without ruling out the other persons salvation. That's when it gets nasty. When you imply that because someone says things or sings thing different to you they are going to hell. Now obviously if they are denying Jesus, then that's another matter, but Planetshakers don't do that, and I am more on their side than I am Denevy's!<br /><br />@Jill - I think that the idea that men and women are equal but different is fairly persuasive. Leaving out the Bible for a moment, I think that at least purely on an anatomical and hormonal level we can see this. On those biological reasons alone, I can't see why this wouldn't give rise naturally to us having different skills or gifting. Look at sport for example, we have mens and women sports because men are usually bigger and stronger (not always more skillful though, my fiancee is far superior at sport than I am.) Likewise I think the way God has made men and women naturally means we are more gifted at somethings than others.<br /><br />I can understand the whole mighty men, beautiful women thing bothering you. I guess it probably is about inner might and inner beauty and they are trying to recapture those terms and redefine them better. But I have never seen a brochure for either conference nor spoken with the pastors so I don't know. I've also never read the Hillsong books you mention. I also would have a problem with promoting physical beauty or strength with Godliness though, if that's what they do.<br /><br />I'm also not sure that having equal and complementary roles is inequitable and uncomplimentary... That would seem illogical. And why only that way for women? Surely if it's inequitable and uncomplimentary for women then it is for men too?Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-43302302325065596572009-07-29T23:35:53.170+10:002009-07-29T23:35:53.170+10:00Hi Chris,
I was a bit concerned by your comment &...Hi Chris,<br /><br />I was a bit concerned by your comment "Men and Women are different and have different roles and the church encourages both equally to fulfill their roles in ways God has uniquely gifted them as men or women. It is good that this irks Deveny and is ultimately a strength of Christian community." <br /><br />I'm probably less persuaded than you are that men and women are different in character or gifting. But what reallllly bothers me is that men are defined by their 'mightiness' and women by their beauty. I'm sure someone will say that it's about inner beauty, but that isn't the message our society gives, and it isn't the message you get in the bookstall at Hillsong either. It may be grounded in an assumption that men and women have equal but complementary roles, but for women, it is inequitable and uncomplimentary.Jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931184566199504968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-66133013087852941232009-07-29T15:54:19.600+10:002009-07-29T15:54:19.600+10:00Yeah I get that Chris.
I tend to get uptight whe...Yeah I get that Chris. <br /><br />I tend to get uptight whenever we buy into this type of negativity. Anyone Christian or Atheist can point out what's wrong with any church they attend. <br /><br />I think we as Christians to often blur the line between constructive criticism and self righteous negativity. <br />I can't tell you how many times I've looked down on something some church does just because it's not what I like or think is right!Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-24762987754672256832009-07-29T15:47:26.986+10:002009-07-29T15:47:26.986+10:00I think I agree John. And I don't know the fu...I think I agree John. And I don't know the full lyrics of the songs they were singing. But I was merely using her comments as a way into my discomfort and dissatisfaction what that type of Christianese speak.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06266685143006297057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-38992131669370599882009-07-29T15:41:04.458+10:002009-07-29T15:41:04.458+10:00Reading through her article I couldn't help bu...Reading through her article I couldn't help but think she'd slam any church service she went too.<br /><br />She went to hate it. <br /><br />She had equally harsh words about the church she grew up in and I don't doubt she would have equally harsh words about any service.<br /><br />I think her article would give an equally harsh opinion of any poorly produced church service.<br /><br />Lyrics from In Christ Alone like "my all in all", "Here in the death of Christ I live", "For I am His and He is mine" and "You the perfect Holy One, crushed Your Son" from Jesus Thank You would surely have been ridiculed. <br /><br />I don't think it matters which dialect of Christianese your church speaks. Any outsider with an agenda is going to find something wrong with it.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-91954904024401114752009-07-29T14:52:09.892+10:002009-07-29T14:52:09.892+10:00Her comment about 'slick videos' etc remin...Her comment about 'slick videos' etc reminded me of a blog I read the other week. John Piper wrote a blog about his opinions on using videos in church, and a response was posted on Collide Magazine (http://www.collidemagazine.com/blog/index.php/1117/we-respectfully-disagree-with-john-piper - has a link to the original article too).<br /><br />I think her whole article gives a very realistic opinion of any disillusioned non-christian attending a well-produced church service.<br /><br />Personally I find her comment about the music more disturbing: 'As the band fired up and went off like a frog in a sock, I thought: "I don’t care what they’re selling but I’m buying it."'This seems to be a reflection on the hype a good band can produce, that (to an outsider) can override the message they are giving.<br /><br />I read an interesting mystery worshipper review of Hillsong (city campus) the other day, and one sentence really caught my eye about: "Did anything distract you?<br />The entire service itself was a little distracting because I felt a bit overstimulated. There was so much going on it was hard to settle down." (http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2008/1516.html)<br /><br />Basically, I can (unfortunately perhaps) completely see where she's coming from with this article. None of her opinions are unique or new, as sad as we may find them.Imohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17012313606463803092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22478825.post-31991784291896278792009-07-29T13:57:11.516+10:002009-07-29T13:57:11.516+10:00http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/shaken-but-not-st...http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/shaken-but-not-stirred-by-stadiumrock-spirituality-20090728-e02k.html --> linky to the full article :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com