An explanation of why we are losing the terms “leaders” and “kids” at Cross-Eyed:
There are many reasons we are changing our terminology. It’s not merely changing words but, it reflects a change in our roles and how everyone at Cross-Eyed is perceived. Here are the main reasons we are making the change to calling everyone “crew”:
- A group of people who are getting together with the same purpose in mind
- That purpose is to build relationships and have meaningful conversations about Jesus while we are hanging out on Friday night.
- Anyone who loves Jesus should be having these conversations, whether they are in grade 8, grade 12, or 5th
- The program is merely a way of facilitating people getting together to have some fun. It is important that the program is attractive to non-Christians, but we must not be distracted by the program. We must remember that our number one aim is to be modeling what we want other crew members to be doing – hanging out and talking about Jesus.
- The second reason we want to move away from the terms “leaders” and “kids” is because they create an expert and student division. That is, we the “leaders” are the God experts and the “kids” are the students who come along to learn from us our many wise teachings. What’s wrong with this?
- It is highly patronising – many young people often feel like the world doesn’t pay them enough respect. We can say at Cross-Eyed we value them as fellow Christian brothers and sisters, not inferior ones.
- It’s simply untrue that we cannot learn anything from high school/college age young people. Some of these guys have awesome passion for God that is very challenging.
- We can support guys through hard times, and rely on some of our experiences because we are older, but that doesn’t mean we will always be right, or always have answers.
- If we are all crew then it’s up to each one of us to be having conversations with others about Jesus. Not just the expert “leaders”
- If we are all involved in the ministry together then the whole crew can take ownership of the ministry. Not just the “leaders”. This means that they are more likely to invite their friends along.
- Finally, it is important that this attitude of “crew” working together permeates through everything we do. That is, not just on a Friday night, but also at church on a Sunday, and whenever we are meeting and hanging out with any other crew members.
- Plus a bit of theology from Dave Rietveld
There is idea in regarding trinity called subordinationism – it’s a heresy! It says that God outranks Jesus, who both outrank the spirit. The true or more orthodox (agreed upon, not as in Greek Orthodox) perspective is that they are equal yet different. The same is true for male and female; the same is true for young and old. This concept is called perichoresis. This is mutual indwelling within the Godhead which ought to be reflected in Christian community (and therefore at Cross-Eyed). On this basis the terms “leaders” and “kids” is unhelpful, and crew is to be preferred.
Any questions or comments??
hi Chris,
thanks for the clear and thoughtprovoking post. good to hear you thinking through the dynamics of youth group so thoroughly!
i really dig your vision for having youth group develop an honest and reciprocal culture that spills out from the formal meeting time.
but i think dropping 'leaders' altogether is a bad idea, while appreciating some of your reasons for doing so. here are my thoughts:
1) there's a lot in the Bible about leadership. that's a good reason to keep the term, or at least the concept.
2) it may be a countercultural thing to preserve the concept leadership in a culture that rejects the idea.
3) it may be a countercultural thing to demonstrate that servant leadership is not patronising, arrogant, refusing to learn, purporting to be an expert.
4)some term (leader, director, overseer) needs to capture who's responsible when the fit hits the shan. who's job is it to call the paedophile to account, rebuke the false teacher or evacuate the room in case of fire? who sets the direction for the group? who unlocks the building?
5) all groups organically develop leaders. failing to recognise them as such can end up doing the leader a disservice, and make the 'crew' a little aimless.
6) there is *some* truth in the expert/student divide. a twentysomething is in general wiser and more knowledgable than a teen. a wise and knowledgeable teen would realise this. you don't want to raise a generation of Rehoboams.
7) the essential (ontological) equality of Father Son and Spirit doesn't rule out a relational hierarchy within the Trinity.
Likewise, the essential equality of YG leader and YG member doesn't rule out a relational hierarchy within the crew.
thanks for the comments Mikey.
I note and agree with much of what you say about leadership. However, in my experience of the majority of youth ministries tend to have only one criteria for leadership. That is having finished school. I know of no other organisation, be it a church, business or government where age is the only factor in determining leadership. For example, at BayWest David is our leader but there are older people than him in our church, even on our staff team. To me that suggests that leadership has more to do with whether or not God has given you the gifts and abilities to lead his people.
Youth group is an interesting situation where a community of people exists and where the law says that because it involves young people responsible safe adults are required. I agree this is a completely good idea. However, youth group is much more than simply a program consumed on a Friday night. Its a community of people getting together, having some fun and sharing and talking about Jesus, hopefully the number one reality in our lives.
So why do we think that simply because we happen to be the oldest, that we are the leaders? I don't believe we can assume that. I think that there are young people at Cross-Eyed who are clearly the leaders, the influencers of others and the sharing of their faith to their friends is far more effective than if myself and the other people my age were the only people who ever talked about Jesus (which is what happened in my experience of youth group as an attendee).
The move away from the terms leaders and kids isn't aimed at removing the notion of leadership. Rather its aimed at fixing the problems with leadership our current terms create.
So don't hear me saying the concept of leadership is dead. We just want to place it in the right hands.
Clearly as I am the person employed by the church and pushing the cultural changes, then i have a natural position of director/pastor/overseer. But my aim is to be in the background, facilitating the ministry. But also making the hard calls when needed.
I don't think leaders have to be the fountains of all wisdom. Clearly due to life experience it is likely for a 20 something to be wiser than a 16 year old. But the 16 year old who realises that would seem to me to be showing great leadership capacity. I want leader s to know they need others.
As for the relational hierarchy of the Trinity, well i'm no theologian. But I'm suspect of the use of, and notion of, a hierarchy in the Trinity to justify a hierarchical relationship in other situations. Be that leader/student or man/woman. Kevin Giles i believe argues reasonably strongly against such a view.
I look forward to continuing the discussion.
I have to say I agree with Mikey.
I had a few thoughts on the whole terminology issue.
I agree with the thought process 100% and think its a great step forward for youth ministry.
I guess I feel that getting caught up on labels has potential to distract from your main goal; which is getting the kids/crew/leadership team to truly experience Christian community and God's family.
As you said, you can't escape the fact that there is going to be a bunch of older people, I agree with Mikey that call yourselves what you like, the kids/crew will recognise you as older, wiser and cooler (whether you are or not!) and thus automatically slot you into a leader/rolemodel box.
So I guess you are faced with that dilemma that there will always appear leaders (even amongst peers)
So how do you get across the message that, unlike school or a sporting team, that the playing field is actually level and they can be as involved as they wish?
My immediate answer would be through relationship.
We have all lead kids/crew on summer camps, only for the next year them to turn out to be a fantastic friend. As having been on both ends of this situation I realise that once you develop a certain level of relationship, leadership stops becoming hierachical. In different situation leadership switches... I can remember being completely humbled in my girls bible study group when all five of them (all past campers) delved into an incredibly uplifting discussion on the Kingdom which taught, challenged and inspired me (thats good leadership!)
So that is a good theory anyway- but difficult to achieve in practice, especially inlarger groups. So therefore maybe that is where the effort needs to lie; not in terms and concepts but through actively pursuing barrier-breaking relationship.
But I guess if the terminology will be a good tool then maybe give it a shot!
xxx katie m
I'll put in my 2 cents, even though I'm not in youth ministry, this isn't my blog, and don't consider myself a theologian!
oh well ;)
First of all, I think if we're to model christian leadership and discipleship to the kids, that the "leaders" of Baywest's youth ministry shouldn't get caught up on these titles (like Katie said), and honour the leadership that Chris has given in making this decision (whether they agree with it or not). As far as I can see, it's not a core gospel issue.
I personally feel that it's time to move away from leader-kid language. I use the word 'time' because what you call the group and whether you make the distinction between leaders shouldn't be a definitive, eternal thing, and in another time and context then leaders and kids might be reestablished (maybe using different terms)
Consider this: perhaps this is an opportunity for those that consider themselves to be leaders to search for other ways they can set themselves apart (in a christlike way), other than a title that can be taken up with little or no effort.
and no, this isn't procrastination. i am waiting for lecture slides to print ;)
Ok here are some of my thoughts in response to Kate’s post.
Firstly, thanks for the vote of confidence! I agree with you agreeing it’s a great step forward for youth ministry ;)
I can understand how it looks like I’m getting caught up on labels but I want to say that what I’m talking about is culture change, not simply label change. I don’t mean that we have leaders and crew now. I mean that we are all part of the crew, working together to build relationships and most importantly talking about Jesus as much as we can.
I would also like to point out that my reasons for calling everyone crew are primarily so that “kids” don’t come along as program consumers but as fellow partners in our gospel work. That is the whole crew is partnering together with Jesus to bring others to Christ. Yes there are older people who may have more wisdom, and responsibility, obviously. But we all have the same primary job. Creating separate categories of leaders and kids reinforces that a leader’s job is to talk about Jesus and a kid’s job is to have fun and consume the program.
I also agree that it has to happen in within relationship. I agree that it would be completely artificial if we just changed the names but remained in the same roles. Leaders providing a program for kids to consume, leaders being the only people who thought they had the responsibility to talk about Jesus. But we are also making, and have already made, some these culture shifts. In fact I think that in many respects the terms “leader” and “kid” don’t actually reflect the reality of what happens at Cross-Eyed on a Friday night anymore.
I would also say that this is much more than a theory but a practical tool that we are using. And you’re completely right when you say that it is achieved through ‘barrier-breaking relationship’. That is exactly the kind of thing I want to see happening at Cross-Eyed. People sitting down and being challenged by each other as they are hanging out together after doing something crazy on a Friday night.
Terminology is an excellent and important tool!
I’m enjoying this discussion lots! So keep the input coming!
Maybe it's necessary to point to Jesus' tendency to turn hierarchy upside down. He, who is definitely greater and wiser than us, placed himself in the role of a servant. A Rabbi washing his friends feet was about as counter-cultural as you could get.
My church recently asked me how I am "empowering leaders" amongst the youth. Here is a little of what I wrote:
"I steer away from the word “leadership” not because I believe it is a bad word or that it is unimportant but because the word carries images and feelings that might not be helpful to students. Most people imagine a leader to be somebody who is structured, outgoing, and has everything together. I don’t know many people like that but I know a lot of people who lead effectively without sacrificing who God made them to be. I want our students to be like Jesus. In that, they will develop into the people that Jesus wants them to be. Sometimes that means they are introverted and lead people quietly and unassumingly. Sometimes that means they are extroverted and upfront leaders. Either way, they become leaders but they also become servants. They become people who carry the load for other people so that those people can experience Jesus and become more like Him."
Language is more powerful than we sometimes give it credit for. The term leader might ostracize students who have been given a narrow view of leadership embedded in their language and worldview.
Chris I’m hesitant to call subordinationism heresy just because it isn’t western orthodox. There are many genuine Eastern Orthodox followers of Christ who maintain that Jesus is subject to the will of the Father. Having said that I also hesitate to structure the church after such a hierarchy. We are all subject to the will of the Father but he has called every believer to his service. He has also created every believer differently. A mouth is no more important than a foot but many of the mouths sure don’t see it that way. Jesus did though and that is all that matters.
The modern notion of leadership isn’t necessarily a Biblical one. The Willow Creek model of church and modern business language has pervaded our culture. The word “leadership” is only found in the Bible four times and the word “leader” isn’t found in the New Testament. The early church was a group of people who met in houses and shared meals together. The ones who did the most work were the most faithful or the ones that were given a shot despite their lack of fidelity (i.e. Timothy).
Correction. The word "leaders" appears 5 times in the NT in reference to Christians.
ok question for chris...
i wholly agree with your comments, but can you elaborate on what this culture shift looks like in practical, structural terms?
if you're changing the terms to crew, but keeping leader/kids the same in terms of structure, then no real change has been made. the kid crew will still be consumers, and the older crew will still be the providers.
for example, how does your youth ministry look different from a youth group where the leaders plan, prepare and execute the program?
cheers
kath
(this one was procrastination!)
The ideal job of a paid youth worker is to do the ground work, equip the students, so that they can do ministry. That is a culture change. Programs will happen but they are only intended to give the students a better chance and opportunity to minister.
oh dear i'm steering this conversation off course a bit... just ignore me while i have my rant!
*start rant*
i agree with you 100% joey. i don't think i made myself clear before. the reason i'm asking this is because there's a potential for churches to make a change similar to the 'crew' thing but make no culture changes. 'buzz' words like 'equip the students' can be thrown around without actually equipping them at all. does that make sense?
one church might 'equip the youth' by employing a youth worker, who creates discipleship groups and gives the students the biblical knowledge and hearts to figure out how best to reach their peers and supports them and catches them if it falls down.
another church might 'equip the youth' by letting them run the sound board on a sunday during the prayerbook service.
i agree that programs are just a means to an end. changes don't need to be looked at in terms of programs, but i think it's a good starting point to see how the 'crew' mindset could change ministry.
what does equipping the students look like? How can the students opportunity to minister be tangible to them, rather than just a name change? How has the culture shift happened already, and can we celebrate these changes together?
*end rant*
god bless!
kath
Right, to answer Kath’s question, what does this new culture look like? Well first of all I imagine it looks like young Christians talking freely about Jesus with their friends at Cross-Eyed. Is this happening yet? Probably not… why not? Probably because those of us who are the ‘leaders’ are still learning how to model this sort of behaviour. But I think that it is beginning, slowly but surely to happen. It is at least on the radar.
What else does it look like? It looks like where possible having meetings with the whole crew, not just part of it (the ‘leaders’). It looks like having ‘kids’ sharing about their faith in the odd talk here and there. It means hanging out together outside Friday night time. I guess whatever other ways you can imagine that fit into the model works.
I also agree with Joey’s post about the ideal role of a Christian in ministry to do the ground work and equip others to minister.
I think we want to equip youth to say, hey I believe in Jesus and I think this about him. To have confidence to talk about the God that they know and love. Not to feel like they need to progress to a certain level before they have anything useful to say about Jesus.
Is a captain not part of his crew?
Having witnessed decision making from elders in the reformed context, I am concerned by it. There is a tendency to inform the Church of their decision rather than consulting the Church before making a decision.
How is it relevant to this discussion?
I think if the leaders made decisions having consulted with the crew (prayer is obviously an imperative and always needs to be part of the decision making process), the "kids" would take ownership... except for the fact that they are getting referred to as "kids", which takes condescension to the next level.
Secondly, I would have thought that the term leader would be synonymous with the term teacher.
How does this work out with Safe Ministry Chris? I find your concept very exciting but rather scary from a logistical point of view. In saying that, the youth ministry at Edge is a little different from where Cross-Eyed is at the moment.
I personally don't mind the idea of leaders and leadership to create a definitive line between those who are leading the others. I know that you say that there are kids who can contribute as leaders in ways that leaders can't but I think that good leadership harnesses the gifts and talents of these kids and uses them to both boost the current scope of the ministry and create good community.
I've been in situations where I've given kids responsibility and they're not leaders and they have run with it and done a great job.
I just think that one of the strengths of having a leadership team from a Youth Pastor's p.o.v. is that I can manage things better. Training, acountability and relationship is good through a hierarchy.